Fantasy Races Reimagined - Races of the Sunless Setting

The Sunless setting, as can be surmised from the name, is a setting where the sun has mysteriously vanished, leading to the biosphere mostly dying off, leading to the waning of ambient magic, leading to the collapse of the magical surface civilizations… and leading to a vast exodus into the abandoned caverns of the dwarves. The civilization that remains and persists has little magic and is technologically mostly late medieval, save for electricity, which is decently understood due the importance of creating breathable air from water.  The setting is what I would describe as ‘low magic’ – magic exists, but since everything must be cast from one’s own life-energy at a high price, it’s not exactly useful or common.

I am using the Sunless setting here to highlight psychological / cultural differences between fantasy races.

The next post will use a different setting to highlight the adaptation of a set bunch of fantasy races in an PnP RPG for a particular setting.


Humans:
There are humans in this setting.  I’m not a fan of humans in settings, as readers tend to find humans more relatable, which in turn skews the perception of the other races as relative to the humans, rather than relative to all other races.  Alas, most of my readers are human, so there is some demand for humans.

Human physiology:
Humans have a variety of (brownish) skin colors, hair colors, and eye colors.  They are physically strong compared to elves and gnomes, but not as strong or tough as orcs.  They have some amount of magical ability, but do not live in it like elves.  They are noted for having particularly lousy vision in the dark.

Human psychology and culture: Humans control many of dwarven cities and other settlements, being strongly inclined towards hierarchical rulership.  Humans tend to welcome orcish labor, but dislike orcish culture finding them unruly. Meanwhile, they are altogether suspicious of gnomes, and find elves disheartening to be around.

Orcs:
I decided on orcs as a major race because I wanted something physically stronger than a human, but perhaps not as smart.  I also wanted a race that was known for raiding others, but not necessarily villainous.  What fantasy race is associated with “strong, raiding, not smart”? Orcs, mostly, though the “not smart” bit seems to be a question of how they are seen through the eyes of the protagonists.

Orc physiology:
The strongest of the major races, and the hardiest as well.  Orcs have a variety of greenish skin colors, prominent jaws and teeth, and the best ability to see in the darkness, though they do need some light.  Of the living races, orcs have the least ability with magic.

Orc psychology and culture:
Orcs are not that bright.  Numbers go put to how many fingers (and “many”), abstract thought tends to get lost, etc.  Orcish culture involves a strong loyalty to the group (clan), and all other matters are seen in terms of contribution to the group.  An orc’s value is generally a question of how much they contribute to the group, and their place in society is their role in the group.

Wealth and ownership differ from the private ownership of others to a question of “Do I currently need this object?”  If you need it, and it is not currently being used, then take it and use it.  This, obviously, causes some confusion with the other races, as humans, gnomes, and elves all have the concept of private ownership, and don’t take well to orcs ‘borrowing’ their stuff (particularly since orcs don’t return objects of their own initiative, but expect that if the other party needs the object, they will come and get it – other cultures call this ‘stealing’).

Place in society does not contribute to social standing, as every role is necessary.  Instead, the value of contribution is noteworthy.  Since most work in orc clans is relatively unskilled, orcs that find their work isn’t valuable will seek out some other task that is presently more needed, and contribute there instead.  Doing work is generally a matter of pride.

Orcs and the other races:
Those outside of the clan are not seen as people, precisely – orcs are known for raiding human and gnome settlements, and even fellow orcish ones without a shred of remorse.  They are not taking what is not presently not needed, they are taking anything.  None of the social rules apply to anyone outside of an orc’s group, and pillaging crops is not seen as any different from growing one’s own crops – both are contributing food to the clan.  This leads to a lot of embitterment.

The other practice that occurs during raids is the kidnapping of other races.  While orcs are not particularly clever, they are, in fact, rather aware of this shortcoming.  If the group is lacking some vital skill, they will attempt to find someone with that skill and bring them into the group, willingly or not.  Orcs are also aware that non-Orcs often have a hard time understanding where their labor is most valuable, and will direct non-Orcs within the clan to do what is needed.  Often a gnome kidnapped during a raid will find herself in charge of cataloguing the loot, then put to work repairing some machinery that is beyond orcish knowhow.

One strange consequence of this practice is that non-orcs often find themselves thrust into positions of planning and leadership, on account of their advanced cognitive ability.  Often an orcish clan will be run by non-orcs.  Of course, like all roles in society, this is temporary, right up until someone else can do it better, or the non-orc is needed more in some other capacity.

Living with orcs can take some getting used-to for non-orcs, particularly the sharing of objects and constantly being directed to perform some task that the non-orc is particularly suited for.  However, if the clan is familiar with the idea that non-orcs have different needs than orcs, and the non-orc can communicate assorted needs, the life can be downright comfortable, though some amount of scorn may occur on the basis of needing so much relative to the contributions of the non-orc.  This is only sometimes balanced by the inability of other orcs to do the necessary task.

Orcs appreciate when non-orcs are able to find important tasks, and if the non-orc is trusted, are often more than willing to take the non-orc’s word that a task is useful – orcs may never urge a non-orc to write a history of the clan, but if the non-orc thinks it’s a good idea… well, the non-orc is clever in ways that orcs are not.  And, of course, the utility or lack of utility will become apparent in time.

This also leads to more kidnapping, as often non-orcs plead an inability to do certain tasks, but do know who to have kidnapped who can do a certain task.

Orcish tribes can be surprisingly diverse – the main feature of the tribe being orcish is that the orcs’ view of the good of the tribe gets the last say on who is doing what.

On the other end of things, orcs are occasionally kicked out of their tribe, sometimes get separated and lost, or otherwise wind up outside of an orcish-dominated tribe.  They will, then, try to find some other group to join, regardless of the race – belonging is a strong psychological urge for orcs.

This often leads to some amount of culture shock, and also the potential for discrimination or abuse.  Some societies are welcoming of orcs, as orcs are known to be enthusiastic manual workers.  This works well, as orcs feel valuable and important to the group via their special physical abilities, while less-manually inclined folks can focus on other tasks.  This can vary from respectful to downright exploitative.

Other societies, often those suffering from orcish raids, view the newcomer orc as representative of their race, not understanding that the raids of orc tribes are a question of group-versus-group behavior, rather than orc-versus-civilization behavior.  This can lead to all manner of lousy behavior towards the orc in question, while the orc tries to contribute to their new group, and not be forced on its own again.

Either way, orcs have trouble integrating due to their tendency to steal, their tendency to leave a job for some task they think is more important, and their tendency to assault those they see doing antisocial behavior.

Gnomes:
Gnomes were conceived of as a sort of the counter-point to orcs, and are very much a mirror in the opposite direction.

Gnome physiology:

Gnomes are the smallest of the races (sometimes call halflings by humans, on account of being half the size of a human), and their strength is proportionate.  They are, however, quick and well-coordinated, and very dexterous with their hands.  Gnomes share skin tones, eye colors, and hair colors with humans. Gnomes have less potential at magic than humans, but tend to realize more of their potential.

Gnome psychology and culture:
Gnomes are noted for being horribly clever and utterly self-serving.  Even when they appear to be acting for the good of others, they are doing so because they expect it will also help them in the end.

This does not mean they are out to screw others over, as cooperation often leads to a better long-term outcomes.

Unfortunately, this does mean that they will do whatever they know they can get away with, and do have a tendency to betray the trust of others at the most inopportune moments – i.e., when there is nothing the other party can do about the betrayal.

Gnome-dominated culture tends to be very individualistic, with lots of deal-making between various group members, but often very little in terms of positions of power – the lack of trust makes leadership tricky.  Fortunately, gnomes are very clever, and the individual deal-making paired with the long view makes sure that things get done.

Gnomes and the other Races:

Gnomes are also aware that they could have an even better life when living in a non-gnomish settlement, and for this reason gnomes are the second-most-common members of almost any city.

With humans, their expertise at technology and cleverness make them valuable, but there is a stigma of betrayal.  Often this is not a problem, as a gnome can explain the virtues of maintaining a good reputation… however, often humans are unwilling to trust someone who is more clever than themselves, having been burned before.

When an individual gnome can’t prove that while other gnomes are duplicitous schemers, the individual gnome won’t screw over the humans due to maintaining a reputation… this causes a loss of incentive to be something other than a duplicitous schemer.  Thus gnomish ghettos can often be sources of crime – either rightfully, as gnomes are clever enough to do crime well, or wrongfully, as humans are quick to blame any crime they can’t solve on the superior intellect of criminal gnomes.  Of course, the gnome might argue, “What gnome criminal would allow the crime scene to look such a way that investigators wound up at his or her doorstep?  If were doing this crime, I would leave clues implicating someone else.  This crime is no doubt someone else covering their tracks by implicating me.”

Human law enforcement does not always get along well with gnomes.

Gnomes tend to see orcs more as ‘things’ than as fellow sentients, due to the orcs being predictable and duty-driven, rather than the orcs expressing their own volition, self-interest, agency, or free will.  This works well for gnomes in orcish clans, as once they catch on they tend to climb to a comfortable position in society.  Alas, this does not always work out when there are multiple gnomes in the same clan, as orcs wind up as pawns for power-plays between various gnomes.  Gnomes find it troublesome, though, that orcs have a tendency to go off-script.  This this can be counter-acted in a variety of ways, for a sufficiently clever gnome…

Gnomes are fairly welcoming of elves, and are happy to mine the memories of elves for historical knowledge, analyze the information relative to what other elves have said, and draw useful conclusions.  Unlike humans, gnomes don’t get depressed by elves, and so, like everyone else, an elf is a valuable tool.

In a certain sense, gnomes can always be trusted, so long as one manipulates the situation such that the gnome being trustworthy stays in the gnome’s best interest.

Elves:
Elves and dwarves are outside of the main triad of races, and they are both relics of a more glorious age.  Or, at least, the elves are, since the dwarves are all dead.

Elvish physiology:

Most notably, elves are an ageless species (as are dwarves, according to legend).  However, they are not physically robust, and are not energetic.  This is due to them being part magical in nature, and no longer having the ambient magic that their bodies expect.  Elves average barely shorter than humans, but are incredibly slight of frame, with a starved looking appearance.  Elves have all manner of skin color, eye color, and hair color, due to earlier magical manipulations.  Elves are the best at using magic, bar none, but are still severely limited by the current circumstances.

Elvish psychology and culture:
Elves are a broken people.  Once, long ago, their magical kingdoms ruled the entire surface, having survived their conflict with the dwarves.  In the old days, elves looked down on the mortal races as not really mattering, as they lived for only a few decades before withering away – not really a meaningful experience.  The manipulation of ambient magic allowed elves to raise their great living cities of wood and crystal, allowed them to fly through the air and communicate throughout the world.  It is whispered that elves even walked through portals to other worlds entirely.

But then the sun disappeared.  And with the sun disappearing, life on the surface died.  And without life, there was nothing to supply ambient magic.  The world went from a place suffused with magic to a place barren and dry of magic.

Not that the disappearance of the sun concerned the elves immediately.  They thought they could fix it with their magic.  Maybe even raise a more pliable source of light to replace it.  While the human cities fled the snow underground, the elves raised great lights throughout the world.

But the lights all flickered out.

The elves were the last to flee into the old dwarven caverns, and by the time they did so, they were nearly bereft of magic and facing cultures that had never relied so heavily on the mana arts.  Elves quickly went from being the most populous and powerful culture in the world to being the least populous and poorest culture in the world.

Worse, the lack of magic not only interfered with their bodies, rendering them frail, but also interfered with their minds – elves with centuries, even millennias of experience found themselves unable to sort through their memories efficiently, instead remembering things based on mere association.  Many went insane to varying degrees, either unable to cope altogether, or unable to distinguish reality from the aeons of memories dredged up by every sight or smell or taste.

Young elves enjoy the benefits of being unable to forget, but even on a timescale of decades, this turns into a curse, as every new experience brings back a flurry of past experiences.

This leads many elves to live lives away from the constant sensory overload of larger cities, living in traveling caravans, ideally experiencing new things, rather than repeated memory-laden ones.  Unfortunately, this also separates them from the small amount of ambient magic that exists from the creatures living in the cities.  Elves can sort their memories better while in cities, and often they will leave the caravan when that is not working for them, and try to live in cities, where they trade memories and stories for coin, before the wash of new experiences fills them up to a level they can no longer sort, even with the local ambient magic.

It’s not always easy, being an elf in this day and age, and a lot of elves get fairly mopey, and the older ones often live mostly in their memories of better times.

Elves and other races:
Elves are exploited by halflings, and sometimes orcs find use for their abilities at altering magic, but often exile elves who can’t consistently hold it together enough to make a positive impact on the tribe.

Dwarves:
The last major race.  They are all dead, and what actually happened to them is a big mystery in the story.  This is the non-spoiler version.

Dwarf physiology:

According to the elves, they are shorter than elves and much stockier, with a squat, wide frame.  They are physiologically ageless, and supposedly very smart.  Unlike most species, they have no ability for magic whatsoever, not even producing mana.  Some elves claim this as proof that they are not really alive.  This also renders them immune to purely magical attacks, though using magic to alter the environment (shooting a fireball, etc.) worked fine while the elves were at war with them.

Dwarven psychology and culture:
Not much is known about dwarves, as they exiled themselves underground a millennia ago to end a globally catastrophic war with the elves.

Elvish knowledge from the surface speaks of advanced non-magical technology – advanced flying carts engaging elvish dragon-riders, golems and summoned elementals being matched by massive electrical suits of armor or armored carts that spat death, and, towards the end of the war, devices that created explosions of unmatched power that poisoned the very land.

The relics found from beneath the surface provide evidence that dwarven creativity and technological progression never ended, with machines that turn water into fresh air and power, devices that turn waste into ingots of pure metal and charcoal, along with vials of strange gas, and other devices that, when linked with a suitable power source, turns the right arrangement of ingots and vials into a new dwarven device.

What the dwarves did not leave was any kind of writing, or instructions on how these wonderful machines were to be used.  The dwarves were also notably devoid of any form of art - at odds with elven memories of dwarves on the surface.

Most perplexingly, despite all this achievement, no living dwarves have been seen, and the caverns are littered with the corpses of dwarves, all having met some manner of violent end.

Other race:
Something else moves in the deepest, hottest tunnels.  Elves swear that new tunnels are being dug, that abandoned campsites have been slightly disturbed.  Sometimes the other races also think they can hear something through the stone.  But saying more would be a spoiler.

Fantasy Races Reimagined - Background

The next three posts are going to be various sets of fantasy races from various settings of mine, but before going into that, I want to talk about fantasy races.

Beware, this is rather rambling, and probably not at all necessary.  Also probably not why you are reading this blog, dear reader, so I can understand if you skip past to go look at more delicious Content.

But, well, if you want to understand where I am coming from in the other Fantasy Races Reimagined posts, you have that option:

(Be aware I am hardly a scholar on this subject - if you know better, let me know.)

Tolkien left a legacy upon the fantasy genre, and part of that legacy involves a setting with multiple sentient races.

For Tolkien, I think that races were races, in the late 19th / early 20th century understanding of the idea.  Elves and humans and hobbits and orcs were all different, with dwarves being a bit more different.  There were physical and mental differences between them, but, well, that was understood to be true between the IRL races.

If you want to delve deeper, you'll find a hierarchy among the races of elves between those lousy elves who never followed the call of the gods (dark elves); those who did, but faltered at some point (Forest Elves); and the best elves, those who went to live with the gods in heaven (Noldor).  There are definite differences between them, and I can't help but wonder to what extent this was an analogy to the races of mankind, and who was closest to the Christian god.  Does this make Galadriel a Jew?

Since then, racist ideas have fallen out of favor, and we start to see fantasy settings still retaining the physical/mental diversity between races, but with those races starting to be portrayed more like different species, probably helped along by the portrayal of alien species in science fiction.

We still call them races, probably because "species" feels too anachronistic, and partly out of deference to Tolkien.  Unfortunate, in my opinion, but if I had the power to change norms, the world would be a very different place.  (Superhero idea: Norm-man.  Thinly veiled secret identity name: Norman.)


The Tolkien lineage continued in RPGs, particularly the rather influential Dungeons and Dragons game.  Why does DnD have Elves, Half-Elves, Humans, Halflings, Orcs, Dwarves?  Probably the Tolkien heritage.  The DnD Elves aren't as Humans-But-Better as the elves in Middle Earth, and they pull slightness of frame from non-Tolkien myth, but it's important to remember that in most myth, elves and goblins are just about the same thing, just multiple names.

(You can generally trace Tolkien lineage by looking at the elves.  If the elves aren't inscrutable alien fey, playing with humans for their own amusement, you're probably seeing Tolkienesque elves.  [If you are familiar with the Exalted setting, they are a rich and unique setting largely divorced of Tolkien's legacy.] )


Tolkien's legacy continues onwards, and has become so prevalent that a certain kind of utility has appeared - it is much easier to get "elf but different" into a reader's head than it is to get "totally new species you have never seen" into a reader's head.  This is because human brains work by using "[X] but different" - in fact, we got to elves, halflings, dwarves, orcs, etc. via 'human but different'.

But now that fantasy readers can be expected to be familiar with all these different archetypes, we can do another step of '[X] but different', and that is... really cool.  While in previous times, everything had to be one step away from humans to get that advantage, now we can explore areas two steps away from humans, while still having that advantage.

...Which, I suppose, is a bit frustrating for fans of starfish aliens.


I am a person who likes logic, particularly in-setting logic.  I often find it jarring when things exist a certain way because of outside-of-setting reasons.  To use dwarves as an example:  Dwarves are associated with using axes to fight, and are also noted for being underground.  This troubles me, as axes are swung, and swinging is something you'd rather not do underground.  It would make more sense for them to fight with stabbing swords like roman legionaries (who fought in packed formations), or to fight with spears and pikes (since tunnels limit the ability to get past a spear).

I don't mind outside inspirations as a jumping off point--the minimal 'why' that overcomes a non-existent 'why not'--but once there exists a reason for things to be a certain way, outside inspiration becomes secondary, as everything else can be derived from the rest of the setting, and fit together much better by that method.

And yet... there is often reason to conform--at least to some extent--to people's expectations, and save on words and confusion.


Having multiple fantasy races is interesting to me on the basis of diversity.  There is a lot of diversity among humans, but that is like saying there is plenty of diversity among integer (whole) numbers - sure, there are an infinite amount of integers, but that's still missing an infinite realm of possibility.

This mirrors my interest in fantasy in general - there is a near infinite amount you can do in non-speculative fiction, but again, the amount you can do in speculative fiction is just so much more.

There are plenty of stories where only humans exist.  There are plenty of stories where only humans are relatable, while other intelligences lurk as the other.  But stories where non-humans are characters much as humans hold a particular place in my heart.


I suppose I will add more rambling sections here if I find I need to while writing the other Fantasy Races Reimagined posts.

Ancient man? Construct? Choices?

"I made war upon these lands before your people knew words, elf."

So I was trying out speeches and stuff, in various situations, and I was playing with the elvish disdain for short-lived mortals. But couldn't I turn the tables? What about something older than elves?

"I have watched the mountains rise and fall, and I now hear the butterfly tell the mayfly, 'Oh, your life is too short to attain wisdom."

The original idea was some sort of ancient construct, old beyond comprehension, posing as a human or something. Of course, if you're going to have anything like that, there must be plot.

So this guy was made in ancient wars before the era any current knowledge. Some sort of mechanical soldier. Not entirely unlike Alclune, in terms of body and mind and stuff. In the millenia since, he has raised empires, done great works, watched all he created turn to dust over the ages, and basically wandered aimlessly. I mean, a mechanical person built with a purpose is quite literally purposeless once the purpose has ended. What is life for a war-bot when the war they were built for has long since ended, and the bones of the civilizations involved has long turned to dust.

This raises interesting questions, of course: What does it mean to be so old and so purposeless? What would you do?

I avoided those... for now.

In the original conception, he was working with some people to retrieve an ancient artifact made by some eldritch horror of myth, long, long ago. The elves, being pricks (how else do we know they are elves?), are defending this object, warning the young humans not to tamper with powers beyond their comprehension. Old construct finally speaks up, and tells them off. Oh, telling off self-important youngsters - it never gets old.

"Your great grandmother's grandmother was a nice old lady when I met her. She was polite, she was respectful of her guests. If your great granddaughter's granddaughter meets me, I wonder what I might say of you to her? When the winds of time scour the words you carve into stone, and all word of your passing fades from memory... what then shall I say of you? How do you want to be remembered?"

There are other things, too. The original conception was, in fact, both villainous (in the long-term planning sort of way) and philosophical. He was the self-same eldritch horror who built the artifact in the first place, and cursed the elves to watch over it forever. He also is fully capable of making badass boasts, concerning martial prowness built up seemingly since the dawn of time, but...

Well, omnipotence is no fun - no fun for the reader, the writer, or the character. So I introduced that in some ancient struggle, during a more active period of his existence, he made a deal to never harm the descendants of some hero (or something), in exchange for that hero's surrender (or something). Cue a few million years of interbreeding, and he is bound by his word (very lawful, ain't he) to basically raise his hand to harm anyone. Ever.

Which, I suppose, is why the the current era he's not seen as malevolent. He's unwilling to commit any violent act, and unwilling to advocate for some violent act. It provokes an interesting thought for me as to how it could be that he keeps to his word over time. Forever is a very long time.

Possible explanations:

1. He's innately lawful: Cheap trick of having a construct character might be that he is physically incapable of going back on his word. (C: One would think that he would overcome this somehow - self-reprogramming?)

2. There is a magical compulsion: This isn't even neccesarily magical. What if he has override codes, and the protagonist of long ago had him hard-program himself? Or simpler, just a magic spell that, like magic spells do, says he can't harm the children of people. (C: Same problem as before. Also means that there are magical boundaries of what he can do, and cannot do, which is different from a pure promise in that it isn't measured by what he thinks, it's measured by what the spell thinks. Which is boring.)

3. He has strong beliefs: Really strong beliefs. This is my personal favorite, though 4. improves upon this. It's just... badass to cling to your word for even a few million years. Of course, there can be more reasons than just badassness to do this. Perhaps him keeping to the same rules, and same promises for millions of years helps him be himself - things change, and I would entirely understand an immortal wanting to get some grip on something solid and eternal about himself. So one of his eternal traits, from then onwards, is that he never commits an action that causes harm. That's pretty defining for a character, and that's truth both as him being a character in a book and being defined, and him being defined in his own eyes.

4. Mix them! Maybe he has a natural lawful bent, but the reason for that is because he wants to be who he is, rather changing as the times change. Or maybe the hero made some sort of magical compulsion on him. The magic eventually rotted, but he decided to keep to his word anyway, as it had become part of his identity. The advantage to this is that it implies character growth. "A man chooses, a slave obeys." If he does not have choice, then his actions are meaningless. However, having good reason can also exist if you mix things.

Let's take that thought a bit further, and make a thread out of his inwillingness to harm.

Original construct is willing to harm people.

Change 1 (magical promise): Construct is not able to harm people, due to magic.

Change 2 (magic rots): Construct is able to harm people, but chooses not to, due to philosophy or identity retention, etc.

Change 3 (Speculative circumstances): Construct chooses to harm people (just once?), because something is more important than his philosophy or identity retention.

Note that the changes aren't character development. Character development is what happens in between, and is reflected in how the construct responds to the changes. Also note this is a form of building badassness, if done that way - Obviously the choice to never harm anyone has to be done for incredibly important reasons. Therefore, the choice to break his word now means that whatever he broke his word for logically has to be more important than any previous reason he has had to break his word in the last few millennia since when the magic rotted.

That last bit there illustrated why I feel that choice is important. That wouldn't be true if he simply overcame his magically compulsion or internal programming to, say, kill someone who was threatening someone he has come to care about (picking something generic). I mean sure, The Power of Love > Programming is great. But that's really just him doing something because he was now able to do it, not because of any personal struggle. I prefer it, anyway.

Tangental things:

In Supreme Commander: Forged Alliance, the main enemy is the Seraphim, an alien race. There religion is based off reaching enlightenment through a very buddhism sort of philosophy/lifestyle called "The Way". Pacifistic, among other things. Which is standard fare. But put "main enemy" and "pacifist searching for enlightenment" together, and you have a question of why they are attacking... and how. Any question is an opprotunity, and the writers of SupCom managed to go both ways. The Seraphim believe that only one species can reach enlightenment, and so any other species (i.e. Humans) who seek enlightenment have the potential to damn their entire species forever. Which is a reasonable reason to attack, if feeling a bit made-up.

But the part I like is that the warriors basically damn themselves for eternity so they can provide the rest of the Seraphim the chance to reach enlightenment, ascend, etc. Let's go over that again: The Seraphim Warriors fully know that they are permanently damning themselves the moment they take violent action against any living creature. And they make a crusade to exterminate every last man, woman and child of humanity.

I can only wonder how the christian crusades would have gone if the pope told people that they were eternally damning themselves to hell by killing muslims in the foreign land. Would they find that 'freeing' the holy land was worth the sacrifice of their immortal soul? Not so sure.

Meaningful choices - they are nifty.